Car Talk

[Asmodean]

My turn: Ford Mondeo (For those unaware, Mondeo is a Belgian Ford)

Downs: Ford...nuff said.

Ups: Priced like a Ford, very good ride, fun to drive, good space, Ghias are well-equipped, later generations are generally reliable, good looks.

There is a big difference between Ford from Belgium and Ford from USA.

[AnimatedDirt]

There is a big difference between Ford from Belgium and Ford from USA.

I wouldn't know, I'll take your word for it.  I'll admit, looking up an image of the Mondeo, it does look nicer than what's available here.  But as a purchase, I wouldn't buy anything Ford unless I was in the market for a full-size pick-up truck or large SUV for towing or hauling.

In the end, it's our own experiences and bias for or against certain cars. 

[Asmodean]

In the end, it's our own experiences and bias for or against certain cars. 

Indeed.

Although for the purpose of this thread I'm trying to be as objective as is prudent.

[technolud]

Sticking my nose in where it isn't wanted, and giving Asmodean a broad script on which to reply I'll makes some automotive purchasing generalizations: (from a US-centric point of view)

1)  Going way back to the beginning of the thread AnimatedDirt was praising the performance of his daughters BMW when crashed.  (E46? early 2000's?)  From the reading I've been doing  (this is a really interesting site concerning car safety http://www.informedforlife.org/)  new cars are much safer then old cars.  Large cars are safer then small cars.  Lower vehicles (cars) are safer then taller ones (SUV's) although this distinction has been minimized to a large extent with the introduction of dynamic stability control. So for maximum safety you want to be looking for the safest new, large, low car you can find.  Check this out too, old vs new technolgy in a head on collision video  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtxd27jlZ_g

2)  Unfortunately the most fuel efficient cars tend to be small and light, think of the new crop of 40 mpg "B" cars.  Ford Fiesta, Hyundai Accent, Honda Civic (YES, I'M THAT FOOL) Chevy Sonic, etc.  In these cases efficiency and safety are to some degree working at cross purposes.  One can circumvent this somewhat by going the technological route with a Prius or VW diesel but you are literally going to have to drive 100,000 miles to recover in fuel savings the added cost of the original investment.

3)  Reliability:  Simpler cars break less often (and less expensively) then complex ones.  Japanese (+ Korean) cars are more reliable then European cars.  (Who knows about American cars?  Somewhere in between?)  This is not only my opinion, there are many studies to support the higher repair rate of the european imports.  Anecdotally, BMW North America headquarters are located in the town I live in.  One can hardly back out of the driveway without hitting a 3-Series.  On my friends/neighbors middle aged cars (5 years old) there often seems to be something minor going wrong (window won't roll up, seat won't move, etc.) and it always costs $800.  They are selling 5 year old 75,000 mile cars because they can't afford the upkeep.  Counter point:  Prius's, although extremely complex, have outstanding reliability records.  Go figure.

4)  European cars handle better the Japanese or US cars.  I think its just been a priority in Europe for much longer.  Although this gap seems to be closing. 

5)  Every manufacturer has design flaws to be avoided, some of which remained in production for decades.

Honda:  Automatic transmissions on  2000-2005 V6's
Subaru:  Cylinder head gastkets from 98-2009
Volkswagen:  Endless CEL's, vacuum hoses made from brie.
BMW/Mercedes:  Everything electronic
Chrysler: Auto transmissions from 1990 to 2006
The list goes on and on.  Before buying one must check out the specific model/years.

6)  So there, I've completely laid out a car purchasing guide for any intelligent atheist.

Start with a new(er) mid-sized relatively simple Japanese sedan for the safest, and most economical solution.   Then size up or down for required room/capicity or desired economy, have the best of both worlds by going for some technology (hybrid or diesel) at added expense, and shop European for that tied down BMW handling and the cache thing.  Just remember, the most versatile and useful car on the planet is a mini-van, and always, always get a manual transmission if available.  The Kia/Hyundia 100,000 warrenties are awesome.

Thus spaketh Technolud

[Asmodean]

1)  Going way back to the beginning of the thread AnimatedDirt was praising the performance of his daughters BMW when crashed.  (E46? early 2000's?)  From the reading I've been doing  (this is a really interesting site concerning car safety http://www.informedforlife.org/)  new cars are much safer then old cars.  Large cars are safer then small cars.  Lower vehicles (cars) are safer then taller ones (SUV's) although this distinction has been minimized to a large extent with the introduction of dynamic stability control. So for maximum safety you want to be looking for the safest new, large, low car you can find.  Check this out too, old vs new technolgy in a head on collision video  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtxd27jlZ_g

Yes, except the last statement holds true vs. a telephone pole or an equal or lower opponent. An SUV generally has some advantage over a sedan as it "rides over it" in a frontal collision.

2)  Unfortunately the most fuel efficient cars tend to be small and light, think of the new crop of 40 mpg "B" cars.  Ford Fiesta, Hyundai Accent, Honda Civic (YES, I'M THAT FOOL) Chevy Sonic, etc.  In these cases efficiency and safety are to some degree working at cross purposes.  One can circumvent this somewhat by going the technological route with a Prius or VW diesel but you are literally going to have to drive 100,000 miles to recover in fuel savings the added cost of the original investment.

Yes, "green" is small and light but Prius is not quite as green as many people would like to think. It's in the "pretends to be something it just sin't" cathegory in my book.

3)  Reliability:  Simpler cars break less often (and less expensively) then complex ones.  Japanese (+ Korean) cars are more reliable then European cars.  (Who knows about American cars?  Somewhere in between?)  This is not only my opinion, there are many studies to support the higher repair rate of the european imports.  Anecdotally, BMW North America headquarters are located in the town I live in.  One can hardly back out of the driveway without hitting a 3-Series.  On my friends/neighbors middle aged cars (5 years old) there often seems to be something minor going wrong (window won't roll up, seat won't move, etc.) and it always costs $800.  They are selling 5 year old 75,000 mile cars because they can't afford the upkeep.  Counter point:  Prius's, although extremely complex, have outstanding reliability records.  Go figure.

Many American cars are unreliable, mostly due to being built to a budget, as are many Euroboxes exported to the USA for the same reason.

Japanese cars were once the most reliable out there. However, a late generation European car can be just as good. Some new Koreans are very reliable as well.

4)  European cars handle better the Japanese or US cars.  I think its just been a priority in Europe for much longer.  Although this gap seems to be closing. 

In general, yes, but a Nissan Supercomputer is to be expected to handle better than a Vauxhall Astra Diesel.

5)  Every manufacturer has design flaws to be avoided, some of which remained in production for decades.

Honda:  Automatic transmissions on  2000-2005 V6's
Subaru:  Cylinder head gastkets from 98-2009
Volkswagen:  Endless CEL's, vacuum hoses made from brie.
BMW/Mercedes:  Everything electronic
Chrysler: Auto transmissions from 1990 to 2006
The list goes on and on.  Before buying one must check out the specific model/years.

Even more generalised:

French: Electronics, brakes and engines
German/Swedes: Electronics, wheel alignment, complicated transmissions, several models are rather rust-prone
Americans: Interior (incl. instruments), trim, electrics, transmissions, prone to wear, often squeaks and rattles from new
Japanese: Overall good, but only good enough. Basically, when something brakes, it could be anything.
Italians: Everything, but electronics usually go first

The Kia/Hyundia 100,000 warrenties are awesome.

Pretty much everyone has those these days though, no?

[technolud]

Darn.  I was hoping for a good fight.  I agree with everything Asmodean says.  I love a good generalization.

I too have heard this about Prius (relative greenness).  I need learn more about this, I imagine it applies to hybrids in general?  I'm really on a simplicity kick at this point.

Other manufacturers offer 100,000 mile warrenties?  Tell me who.  I want one of those.

T.

[Asmodean]

In Europe, pretty much everything has at least a 100000(km) warranty. Many models do, for that reason, come with better warranty as a competitive edge.

Hyundai, BMW, Porsche and Mini (BMW) offer a warranty, not limited by the distance traveled. That said, Hyundai does offer the longest warranty period. There may be others, but it's been some time since I checked car warranties.

BMW also offer free road assistance for five years. Merc has the best rust warranty.

Kia offers 150000km, which is very good, but Kia warranty is lacking in other places. Hyundai have possibly the best warranty on certain models (Not sure about others)

[technolud]

I especially covet the European diesels.  Our choices here are limited to VW, BMW and Mercedes, with the last two being prohibitively (for my cheap a...) expensive.  And VW is plauged by $8000 diesel fuel system replacement problems.......  Kia Rio here I come.

[Asmodean]

Really? Your VW diesels have engine trouble..? Haven't heard many horror stories here... Oh, some of the older ones can give you head ache if not maintained properly and if fuel quality is crap, but newer ones seem to work well.

[hismikeness]

My first car was an 89 Buick Regal. My folks bought it for me in high school, and I drove it through college. For those of you asking, you can, indeed, fit two full kegs of beer securely in the trunk. True story.

The engine finally died, and I sold it for $50 to a buddy of mine who fixed the engine and then made it a convertible. I helped him do it. We took a saws-all and chopped the top off of it, only shattering one of the windows (rear). The seat belts attached to the top of the door jamb and since we cut that off we had to relocate them lower. FYI, the picture is not my car, but nearly identical, including the red color. He also had an old police light- the flashing red magnetic kind- which we hooked up to the rear center brake light. So when you hit the brakes the light would spin. It was a fun weekend project. I'm pretty sure it wasn't street legal.

After that I bought a 2000 Ford Explorer.
I now drive a 2002 Ford Explorer.
My dream car is a Ford Flex


My wife has had a Saturn Ion, she drove the 02 Explorer before me, and now drives a VW Jetta.

[OldGit]

The Murcans may not have heard of an autogas conversion, but they're slowly catching on in the UK and have been around in Europe for decades.

Instead of the spare wheel in the back I have a 50-litre tank holding a propane-butane mixture.  On the dash is a button to switch fuels.  I leave mine on gas (which does not mean petrol!) all the time.  It starts the engine on petrol, then as soon as the engine coolant is warm enough to heat up the vapouriser, it switches itself to gas.  That's about a mile in winter, less in summer.

It does slightly less mpg but the autogas is roughly half the price of petrol.  That's only because it's taxed much less, and maybe one day the government will start to tax it more.  I've already paid off my conversion costs.

[technolud]

The Murcans may not have heard of an autogas conversion, but they're slowly catching on in the UK and have been around in Europe for decades.

Instead of the spare wheel in the back I have a 50-litre tank holding a propane-butane mixture.  On the dash is a button to switch fuels.  I leave mine on gas (which does not mean petrol!) all the time.  It starts the engine on petrol, then as soon as the engine coolant is warm enough to heat up the vapouriser, it switches itself to gas.  That's about a mile in winter, less in summer.

It does slightly less mpg but the autogas is roughly half the price of petrol.  That's only because it's taxed much less, and maybe one day the government will start to tax it more.  I've already paid off my conversion costs.

Cool.  Where do you get the fuel?  

[Asmodean]

The Murcans may not have heard of an autogas conversion, but they're slowly catching on in the UK and have been around in Europe for decades.

Instead of the spare wheel in the back I have a 50-litre tank holding a propane-butane mixture.  On the dash is a button to switch fuels.  I leave mine on gas (which does not mean petrol!) all the time.  It starts the engine on petrol, then as soon as the engine coolant is warm enough to heat up the vapouriser, it switches itself to gas.  That's about a mile in winter, less in summer.

It does slightly less mpg but the autogas is roughly half the price of petrol.  That's only because it's taxed much less, and maybe one day the government will start to tax it more.  I've already paid off my conversion costs.

Cool.  Where do you get the fuel?  

Gas fueling stations. It's more or less the same fuel as goes into a caravan or a boat for cooking and heating.

[technolud]

VW TDI high pressure fuel pump problems.

Check out this thread.  http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=308323&highlight=fuel+injection+warranty

I don't know if this is US only.

I miss my old microbus.

[Asmodean]

Oh! Yes, that there was a fuel quality issue, I think. The pump couldn't handle some fuels. Very few cars over here had that problem while new(-ish), but it does occur on ageing VWs.

VW automatic transmissions are somewhat disaster-prone if abused though.