Saudi princess: What I'd change about my country

[Tank]

RE-EDIT: I edited this post before I saw the one by Tank that follows.  When he first saw it, only my first two paragraphs were here.

(I do wish we could talk about Saudi Arabia.  

I really, really, really want to talk about Saudi Arabia.  But...)

{snip}

Then start a thread about Saudi Arabia!

But this is a thread about Saudi Arabia.  At least it was...  Why do we need two?

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for this to remain a thread about Saudi Arabia (per the thread's title) and the discussion on holding doors to go to a new thread?

The nastiness in this thread is unsettling, and I am posting on door holding to try to smooth it out.  I feel responsible, as a remark I made about women as queens (a remark that originally came from a Saudi student I was quoting, not something I agree with) derailed the topic and caused all this miscommunication.  I wish I had not printed that quote, but I cannot take it back.  All I can do is try to make nice, make peace, and get the topic back on track.

TWC

Don't let any nastiness you may perceive upset you. The members participating in this thread know each other quite well. We have group Skype video calls now and again which you can join in as well. You're attempts to re-rail the thread are appreciated.

[En_Route]

Tank,

There is plenty of available material online, but the text I most often refer to is The Human Mind by Robert Winston. If you can find any excerpts online then be my guest. His research tells us that the testosterone in babies acts as an inhibitor to neural connections across the hemispheres of the brain. This means that the male brain (exposed to higher testosterone levels) has more intra-hemisphere neural connections (leading to a better capacity for mathematical thinking), and the female brain, well-connected across the hemispheres is better able to access emotions.
Whilst I do not know of any conflicting (or corroborating) research I have no particular reason to question the validity of this work. I trust you can accept this underpinning of my assertions.

I agree that Children, men, dogs, spiders and women all have different mental motivations (i didn't state otherwise) and it is sensible to relate to them all accordingly.

I do not expect to be treated the same, because I know I'm different. But if someone is to hypocritically expect equal, unprejudiced treatment when they are unwilling to demonstrate the same, I shall hold my own prejudiced ground. Surely that is only fair?
I don't do things because they are right, I do things because it suits me. It often suits me to do 'good' things, and sometimes not. But I do strive for equity and if I am not shown it, I will reciprocally react to achieve the balance I judge to be fair.

I do not deny that I am prejudiced. I make no apology for that - I'm a product of my surroundings. I argue that we all are. What I want is to get an admission that the women who cry 'sexism' are not immune from being tarred with the same brush when, in everyday life, subject their partners and other men to the same sexism. Before the whole issue can be fairly addressed this must be understood.

I don't think you can believe that your opinions are prejudiced and that they are also correct. It would seem to follow that you don't believe what you are saying. The fact also remains that some men exhibit  typically feminine mental traits and vice versa. It is also the case that our neural circuitry is not fixed and that we are not biologically predetermined, so that women can cultivate typically masculine traits and capabilities if they are so disposed, and  again vice versa. Any form of stereotyping is pernicious because it does not take cognisance of the uniqueness and complexity of the individual. Prejudice leads to people being mistreated and hurt, be it religiously, racially or sexually based.

[Firebird]

You're in a cantankerous mood today. Must be your time of month. Anyway  I can't hang around chatting to you as I need  to have a chinwag with a spider.

*Clonks E_R over the head with a Jar of Something*

Note to self: Abandon all future attempts at irony.

SNORT

Anyway, Scissorlegs, I think your fallacy here is taking the generalization too far. Yes, generally men have had more upper body strength, and heterosexual couples tend to fall into certain roles, ie the guy opening the stuck jar. But generalizations are never universal. For example, the woman who used to be my trainer at the gym could have kicked my puny ass anytime, and I'm sure open that jar more easily than me. Once you start applying generalizations to everybody, you're screwed, because you're always going to come across exceptions, probably lots of them. Check out the new CEO of Yahoo, for example. Or hey, lots of jokes are made on HAF about how all Americans own guns, and all our beer sucks. Also, that we're all religious nuts. There's certainly a good reason for those generalizations, but they're nowhere near universal, as I have shown, and many other people on this forum too.

Also, TWC, don't worry, we're all kinda nuts, and we all know it. This derail is nothing new.

[Sweetdeath]

Yeah, TWC. We're famous for our derails~ 

[TheWalkingContradiction]

The nastiness in this thread is unsettling, and I am posting on door holding to try to smooth it out.  I feel responsible, as a remark I made about women as queens (a remark that originally came from a Saudi student I was quoting, not something I agree with) derailed the topic and caused all this miscommunication.  I wish I had not printed that quote, but I cannot take it back.  All I can do is try to make nice, make peace, and get the topic back on track.  

You are a very sweet and sensitive soul, aren't you?  

I wish I were, but I know I am not.  I try my best because I know how ridiculous, petty, divisive, and unfair I can be when I am riled (and how hyper-sensitive I am about gay issues and religious attacks on me).  Teacher Mark (Mark being my real name and what my students call me since I do not permit "Professor" or "Mister") is a cool guy, but he is a creation of my mind, no more real than a fictional character.  In my posts here, I employ my Teacher Mark personality.  Teacher Mark is what I strive to be, but often Real Mark runs interference.

In this thread I saw an opportunity to explain something about contemporary Arabs (50% of my ethnicity and a significant percentage of my students, non-American family and friends) and perhaps end a few prejudiced thoughts.  I am also well informed in Judaic Studies and neutral on any issue with Israel and Palestine; I would jump into a thread to alleviate anti-Semitic stereotypes for the same reason I do so with Arabs or Islam.  Plus, one thing none of you knows about me yet is that the new language I am learning is Yiddish.  Anything I can do to bring people together (particularly since evolution gave me a rather divisive nature I must fight against) is a mekhaye (a pleasure - although the word can also mean a blesssing).

I just grieve that my attempts to alleviate stereotypes of Arabs have created stereotypes of women.  I am also very sensitive regarding women's issues, as I consider myself a male with a woman's spirit, something I have trouble making other people understand.  They assume that means I want surgery or I want to cross dress or I must be very effeminate.  Actually, I have no desire to change my body or clothes, and I am quite straight acting; people are surprised when I say I am gay.  As an example, when a colleague found out about my learning Yiddish, she said I must want to impress Jewish girls.  (She had used the word "girls," which is why I use it.)  "Men in my case," I explained, "and no, I would never learn a language just to get a date."

So yes, I find sexism very disturbing, and years ago I read a good book that called homophobia (whether directed at men or women) a weapon of sexism.

But the most important piece of information in all this...  I came from the body of an Arab woman.

[TheWalkingContradiction]

Thank you, Tank, Sweetdeath, and Firebird.  It's a lot to take in, and it will probably be a while before I understand this board.  Right now it seems very illogical and arbitrary, but I am sure that I will one day see logic (colored by a bit of illogic) and reason (colored by a bit of arbitrariness).

[Firebird]

This board is a lot more sane and rational than most other ones, frankly. The mods do a great job, and people are passionate, but generally respectful. There were some strong opinions, maybe some you didn't like, but consider how many of us jumped in to decry what we perceived as sexism too. And no one called someone else names. Or called them Hitler. Or threatened to kick someone else's ass. Trust me, that's saying something for the internet
It's a pleasure to have someone as thoughtful and insightful as you on here, and I really hope you stick around.

[The Black Jester]

This board is a lot more sane and rational than most other ones, frankly. The mods do a great job, and people are passionate, but generally respectful. There were some strong opinions, maybe some you didn't like, but consider how many of us jumped in to decry what we perceived as sexism too. And no one called someone else names. Or called them Hitler. Or threatened to kick someone else's ass. Trust me, that's saying something for the internet
It's a pleasure to have someone as thoughtful and insightful as you on here, and I really hope you stick around.

Seconded...

[Sweetdeath]

*____* TWC, I think i love you..

You seem like such a cool., cool , guy. And it's just extra great that you're a teacher.

[Siz]

Tank,

There is plenty of available material online, but the text I most often refer to is The Human Mind by Robert Winston. If you can find any excerpts online then be my guest. His research tells us that the testosterone in babies acts as an inhibitor to neural connections across the hemispheres of the brain. This means that the male brain (exposed to higher testosterone levels) has more intra-hemisphere neural connections (leading to a better capacity for mathematical thinking), and the female brain, well-connected across the hemispheres is better able to access emotions.
Whilst I do not know of any conflicting (or corroborating) research I have no particular reason to question the validity of this work. I trust you can accept this underpinning of my assertions.

I agree that Children, men, dogs, spiders and women all have different mental motivations (i didn't state otherwise) and it is sensible to relate to them all accordingly.

I do not expect to be treated the same, because I know I'm different. But if someone is to hypocritically expect equal, unprejudiced treatment when they are unwilling to demonstrate the same, I shall hold my own prejudiced ground. Surely that is only fair?
I don't do things because they are right, I do things because it suits me. It often suits me to do 'good' things, and sometimes not. But I do strive for equity and if I am not shown it, I will reciprocally react to achieve the balance I judge to be fair.

I do not deny that I am prejudiced. I make no apology for that - I'm a product of my surroundings. I argue that we all are. What I want is to get an admission that the women who cry 'sexism' are not immune from being tarred with the same brush when, in everyday life, subject their partners and other men to the same sexism. Before the whole issue can be fairly addressed this must be understood.

I don't think you can believe that your opinions are prejudiced and that they are also correct. It would seem to follow that you don't believe what you are saying. The fact also remains that some men exhibit  typically feminine mental traits and vice versa. It is also the case that our neural circuitry is not fixed and that we are not biologically predetermined, so that women can cultivate typically masculine traits and capabilities if they are so. Index and again vice versa. Any form of stereotyping is pernicious because it does not take cognisance of the uniqueness and complexity  of the individual. Prejudice leads to people being mistreated and hurt, be it religious, racial or sexually based.

I am prejudiced in as much as I relate to women on the basis that they think like women. I see no reason to change this. I also relate to men, dogs and spiders similarly, respectively. I have the option to change my opinions on any individual once I have something more definite to work from. It has served me well so far. I don't mistreat anyone over that which is required to live my life well. I have no reason to change that, whatever you think.

Some of us acknowledge our prejudices and try to deal with them if we see them as unhelpful and some of us deny that we have any. Which are you?

You seem to consider that trying to change brain wiring to be a reasonable option. Can't we just be happy to accept who we are and celebrate that? And work to our strengths.

[En_Route]

Tank,

There is plenty of available material online, but the text I most often refer to is The Human Mind by Robert Winston. If you can find any excerpts online then be my guest. His research tells us that the testosterone in babies acts as an inhibitor to neural connections across the hemispheres of the brain. This means that the male brain (exposed to higher testosterone levels) has more intra-hemisphere neural connections (leading to a better capacity for mathematical thinking), and the female brain, well-connected across the hemispheres is better able to access emotions.
Whilst I do not know of any conflicting (or corroborating) research I have no particular reason to question the validity of this work. I trust you can accept this underpinning of my assertions.

I agree that Children, men, dogs, spiders and women all have different mental motivations (i didn't state otherwise) and it is sensible to relate to them all accordingly.

I do not expect to be treated the same, because I know I'm different. But if someone is to hypocritically expect equal, unprejudiced treatment when they are unwilling to demonstrate the same, I shall hold my own prejudiced ground. Surely that is only fair?
I don't do things because they are right, I do things because it suits me. It often suits me to do 'good' things, and sometimes not. But I do strive for equity and if I am not shown it, I will reciprocally react to achieve the balance I judge to be fair.

I do not deny that I am prejudiced. I make no apology for that - I'm a product of my surroundings. I argue that we all are. What I want is to get an admission that the women who cry 'sexism' are not immune from being tarred with the same brush when, in everyday life, subject their partners and other men to the same sexism. Before the whole issue can be fairly addressed this must be understood.

I don't think you can believe that your opinions are prejudiced and that they are also correct. It would seem to follow that you don't believe what you are saying. The fact also remains that some men exhibit  typically feminine mental traits and vice versa. It is also the case that our neural circuitry is not fixed and that we are not biologically predetermined, so that women can cultivate typically masculine traits and capabilities if they are so. Index and again vice versa. Any form of stereotyping is pernicious because it does not take cognisance of the uniqueness and complexity  of the individual. Prejudice leads to people being mistreated and hurt, be it religious, racial or sexually based.

I am prejudiced in as much as I relate to women on the basis that they think like women. I see no reason to change this. I also relate to men, dogs and spiders similarly, respectively. I have the option to change my opinions on any individual once I have something more definite to work from. It has served me well so far. I don't mistreat anyone over that which is required to live my life well. I have no reason to change that, whatever you think.

Some of us acknowledge our prejudices and try to deal with them if we see them as unhelpful and some of us ,  we have any. Which are  seem to consider that trying to change brain wiring to be a reasonable option. Can't we just be happy to  that  who we are and celebrate that? And work to our strengths.

I would try to identify and weed out as best I can harmful or unhelpful thinking patterns. By definition it's impossible to know for sure how successfully I achieve that goal. I am 100% confident it's not 100%. On your other point, it's actually well- nigh impossible to avoid altering our neural circuitry, just by dint of the life- choices we make.
I would venture that  many people want to learn and grow and master new insights and skills. That kind of striving is conducive to human happiness. Achievement normally does involve effort which may well entail to some extent going against the grain to get you where you want to be. Paradoxically, part who we are may often  turn out to be the desire to be something more than we already are.

[En_Route]

The nastiness in this thread is unsettling, and I am posting on door holding to try to smooth it out.  I feel responsible, as a remark I made about women as queens (a remark that originally came from a Saudi student I was quoting, not something I agree with) derailed the topic and caused all this miscommunication.  I wish I had not printed that quote, but I cannot take it back.  All I can do is try to make nice, make peace, and get the topic back on track.  

You are a very sweet and sensitive soul, aren't you?  

I wish I were, but I know I am not.  I try my best because I know how ridiculous, petty, divisive, and unfair I can be when I am riled (and how hyper-sensitive I am about gay issues and religious attacks on me).  Teacher Mark (Mark being my real name and what my students call me since I do not permit "Professor" or "Mister") is a cool guy, but he is a creation of my mind, no more real than a fictional character.  In my posts here, I employ my Teacher Mark personality.  Teacher Mark is what I strive to be, but often Real Mark runs interference.

In this thread I saw an opportunity to explain something about contemporary Arabs (50% of my ethnicity and a significant percentage of my students, non-American family and friends) and perhaps end a few prejudiced thoughts.  I am also well informed in Judaic Studies and neutral on any issue with Israel and Palestine; I would jump into a thread to alleviate anti-Semitic stereotypes for the same reason I do so with Arabs or Islam.  Plus, one thing none of you knows about me yet is that the new language I am learning is Yiddish.  Anything I can do to bring people together (particularly since evolution gave me a rather divisive nature I must fight against) is a mekhaye (a pleasure - although the word can also mean a blesssing).

I just grieve that my attempts to alleviate stereotypes of Arabs have created stereotypes of women.  I am also very sensitive regarding women's issues, as I consider myself a male with a woman's spirit, something I have trouble making other people understand.  They assume that means I want surgery or I want to cross dress or I must be very effeminate.  Actually, I have no desire to change my body or clothes, and I am quite straight acting; people are surprised when I say I am gay.  As an example, when a colleague found out about my learning Yiddish, she said I must want to impress Jewish girls.  (She had used the word "girls," which is why I use it.)  "Men in my case," I explained, "and no, I would never learn a language just to get a date."

So yes, I find sexism very disturbing, and years ago I read a good book that called homophobia (whether directed at men or women) a weapon of sexism.

But the most important piece of information in all this...  I came from the body of an Arab woman.

You bear no responsibility for the tenor of the discussion on gender roles, which as has already been  been pointed out, was red- blooded but mostly pretty civilised. The threads here can go off on tangents in a blink, and the original point can be buried in a succession of anecdotes, meanderings  or  as in this case animated controversy. That is part of the  seductive charm and at times the frustration of  a non- dirigiste style of moderation, which on the whole seems to me to  be laudable.

[Siz]

I would try to identify and weed out as best I can harmful or unhelpful thinking patterns. By definition it's impossible to know for sure how successfully I achieve that goal. I am 100% confident it's not 100%. On your other point, it's actually well- nigh impossible to avoid altering our neural circuitry, just by dint of the life- choices we make.
I would venture that  many people want to learn and grow and master new insights and skills. That kind of striving is conducive to human happiness. Achievement normally does involve effort which may well entail to some extent going against the grain to get you where you want to be. Paradoxically, part who we are may often  turn out to be the desire to be something more than we already are.

No wonder there's so much misery in the world - everyone chasing their tales...

[En_Route]

I would try to identify and weed out as best I can harmful or unhelpful thinking patterns. By definition it's impossible to know for sure how successfully I achieve that goal. I am 100% confident it's not 100%. On your other point, it's actually well- nigh impossible to avoid altering our neural circuitry, just by dint of the life- choices we make.
I would venture that  many people want to learn and grow and master new insights and skills. That kind of striving is conducive to human happiness. Achievement normally does involve effort which may well entail to some extent going against the grain to get you where you want to be. Paradoxically, part who we are may often  turn out to be the desire to be something more than we already are.

No wonder there's so much misery in the world - everyone chasing their tales...

The neuroscience as well as everyday observation suggests otherwise. Being engaged in pursuits that challenge, grip and engage us is a major ingredient in  maintaining mental health and contentment. Putting yourself on a treadmill to achieve material success or status is not a recipe for joy.

[Siz]

I would try to identify and weed out as best I can harmful or unhelpful thinking patterns. By definition it's impossible to know for sure how successfully I achieve that goal. I am 100% confident it's not 100%. On your other point, it's actually well- nigh impossible to avoid altering our neural circuitry, just by dint of the life- choices we make.
I would venture that  many people want to learn and grow and master new insights and skills. That kind of striving is conducive to human happiness. Achievement normally does involve effort which may well entail to some extent going against the grain to get you where you want to be. Paradoxically, part who we are may often  turn out to be the desire to be something more than we already are.

No wonder there's so much misery in the world - everyone chasing their tales...

The neuroscience as well as everyday observation suggests otherwise. Being engaged in pursuits that challenge, grip and engage us is a major ingredient in  maintaining mental health and contentment. Putting yourself on a treadmill to achieve material success or status is not a recipe for joy.

Okay, flippant comment.

...but think of the money and status...!