Imagine no religion/atheism.

[Hitsumei]

i never said getting rid of religion would remove all violence, but that it would reduce violence.

I have never failed to realize that this was your assertion.

You're right, it would be vastly different. One thing we could be sure about though would be that the crusades would never have happened, the spanish inquisition would not have happened, the 9/11 attacks would never have happened, i could continue. Other things, like the invention of the light bulb may not have hapened also, but they also, may well have happened, the same cannot be said for the religious atrocities as they are specefically ruled out in this hypothesis. In summary, many bad things would be removed, while positive things may or may not be ( though really, the lightbulb would have been invented sooner rather than later, probably sooner without the dark ages brought on by religion ). Note, the positive things religion has done ( I am straining to think of many though ) would also be removed, though I think religion does more harm than good, so still a worthy trade off.

I feel that I'm going in circles. I have addressed this already. There is nothing that makes it impossible, or even unlikely that similar events could have happened in their stead. Your opinion that they just would not have, and history would have turned out the exact same minus the good and the bad of religion -- instead of the far more reasonable assumption that all of history would be vastly different -- is just that, your opinion, and by no means proof, or even an argument.

It isn't as if events like the Rwandan genocide never take place, which itself was responsible for far more death than all of the events that you mention combined.

[Will]

I'm not making such a case. I am saying that it is a plausible possibility. I don't think that it is reasonable to just make an assumption about which is the case, that is why I said that it is a "scientific question". One which I leave up to science, and do not pretend to know the answer to.

I don't think it's a good idea to leave such an important question to guesswork. Is hatred learned or can it be innate? I'm pretty sure that it's learned, and I remember this from school, but I'm having trouble tracking down a verifiable citation. We may have to agree to disagree on this point unless we can get some data.

Yes there are. There are millions of anecdotal accounts of Jesus from Christians throughout history, and by people that are still alive. The accounts of Apollo just kind of trail off at one point. Perhaps he went on holiday.

There are many accounts of seeing mythic gods from followers of Greek and Roman polytheism. Those accounts seem to have drooped off, but I don't know for sure. Still, we have plenty of current and contradictory religions that feature revelation. Someone seeing Mohammad isn't any more or less believable than someone seeing Jesus.

Wait, what were we talking about?

Which is why we establish people's credibility in court, and is why people are far more likely to accept the anecdotes people that they trust, like friends and families whom are far more likely to belong to the same religious traditions, than they are to accept anecdotes of people that they don't know, and can't judge the credibility of, or are not members of a community that they have grown to trust.

I think we've wondered a bit too far off point.

"Imagine no religion" is an atheist's way of saying "it's okay to ask yourself what your life, or even the world, might be like without religion." It's not necessarily a condemnation of all of religion, it's not necessarily referencing violence or hatred or whatever. It's just an "imagine things from our perspective" campaign.

[Hitsumei]

I don't think it's a good idea to leave such an important question to guesswork. Is hatred learned or can it be innate? I'm pretty sure that it's learned, and I remember this from school, but I'm having trouble tracking down a verifiable citation. We may have to agree to disagree on this point unless we can get some data.

I'm not saying whether "hatred" is learned, I am saying that it very well could be that some people are just more predisposed towards that emotional state of mind then others. I also am not leaving it up to guesswork, I have repeatedly said that it is a question that needs to be answered with evidence and reason. Saying that you already know the answer because it seems intuitive is engaging in guesswork.

It is perhaps an awful thought to think that some people may just be naturally predisposed towards hateful states of mind, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the case.

Wait, what were we talking about?

Dunno! I seemed to have been dragged into apologetics (by no means kicking and dreaming). Can't say that I completely dislike arguing for the sake of arguing, but it isn't my favorite pass time either.

"Imagine no religion" is an atheist's way of saying "it's okay to ask yourself what your life, or even the world, might be like without religion." It's not necessarily a condemnation of all of religion, it's not necessarily referencing violence or hatred or whatever. It's just an "imagine things from our perspective" campaign.

Then I have no problem with that, nor see anything wrong with it, but I have said from the beginning that I find those that rail against religion as this source of a huge amount of societal woes are wrong headed, and if you are correct in your assessment, then also missing the point.

[Sophus]

So are you saying we're only permitted to imagine deism, pantheism, apatheism and agnosticism?    By the way Hitsumei, what's a sort of Christian? Are you a Deist who happens to be a western cultural Christian - or just trying to distance yourself from the fundies?

Imagine no people. There's a world I would like to live in.

[Hitsumei]

By the way Hitsumei, what's a sort of Christian? Are you a Deist who happens to be a western cultural Christian - or just trying to distance yourself from the fundies?

I am a western culture Christian, but I don't accept the metaphysical and ontological claims that are associated with it. I take no metaphysical positions. I don't think that any of them are properly justified enough to be able to intelligibly defend, nor do I see sufficient practical reason to take any.

Nor am I an agnostic. Agnosticism generally is used to denote a lack of certainty. People consider them to be on the fence, undecided. In the middle. Richard Dawkins in his position scale places it in the center, with completely certain theist at one end, and completely certain atheist at the other.

I am not uncertain, and have made up my mind. I am not on the fence, nor in the middle. I like most everyone else, have a strong intuitive hunch, but I do not consider that a valid starting point for taking philosophical positions, so I merely refrain.  

Imagine no people. There's a world I would like to live in.

Or just better looking, and smarter people. That's the world for me.