A Hard Question for Christians

[Miss Anthrope]

I'd like to slap all the idiots whose eyes get all glassy and their mouths start drooling whenever someone brings up the term, "Outside the Universe". As if these idiots think it's humanities ultimate goal to escape this prison here and go somewhere "outside". FUCK YOU IDIOTS! (no, not you.) Chances are if we were to even attempt to go somewhere "outside the universe" it would be so radically different that we would not be able to survive.

In fact, Since we are material beings made "in the universe" how can we go outside the "universe" without simply extending the boundaries "of the universe". These idiots make me mad...  

I agree, that's why although I maintain an open-minded view about such things (TOO open-mided actually), my working assumption is materialistic. I don't get the impression you were implying that I'm one of those glassy eyed idiots, I just want to make it clear since I'm treding on "fanciful" waters in this thread. I don't invest any "hope" in alternative views, in fact I find the implications of such things very disturbing.

[Miss Anthrope]

I don't really view our minds as anything other than a program running on some pretty exotic hardware. To me, a computer program has inputs, and then outputs, we are the same, inputs from senses, outputs as motor nuerone controls etc. This would place the inhabitants of a digital world on an equal level to our own level of sentience in my view.

In your example, why model a brain if it not being used to model the reactions of the creature? I would say the brain is the computer running the code, and the code is the mind/consciousness.

Once again, I essentially agree with what you're saying, but only from a materialist standpoint and a traditional view of cause and effect.

My computer game character model was admittedly very simple. But in the context I was referring to, the mad scientist, or mad programmer in this thought experiment, would connect appropriate reactions and brain activity in accordance with the virtual creature's understanding of the apparent laws of physics, etc.
So, in a sense, for the same reason code comes together in a videogame to create the illusion that you're actually in a world with depth, light, gravity, etc; everything is simulated. So in the scenario I described, the virtually conscious creature would only be able to understand itself based on the observable laws it holds true, and would have no way to know that despite the connection between its brain activity and consciousness, the two are not one and the same, they just appear to be. Over the years I've watched science basically tell me that everything is illusory; space, time, motion, consciousness, qualia,etc, and it just got me to a point where I can't see anything as solid or factual excpet in the context of how it relates to the whole.

To put it all another way, if the brain is the computer running the code and the brain itself alters the input to create a very limited, illusory representation of reality which is tuned for survival, not full comprehension of reality, then can we really trust the computer when it comes to integrating scientific knowledge with abstract concepts?

EDIT: I'm enjoying this line of discussion immensely, but I realize that it's really going off on a tangent, so I'm going to start a thread in Philosophy if anyone cares to go there. I'll call it "Reality - Is it Real?" or something ridiculous like that.

[suntzu]

wesmel06,

It is taking all that I have not to start this post with "your an idiot."  All of your tenets are based upon observation which is the domain of science.  Only in science a hypothesis like "look at the human body its sooo complex it has to be made by a creator" would be required to have empirical evidence to support it.  I could just as easily say, "God doesn't exist because our bodies are so frail that they can freeze in conditions considered normal in many places on earth."  For example, "God can't possible exist or people could go outside in Winnipeg during the winter without clothes on and not die."  Oh and I love the part about the bible having sooooo many authors and being written over 1500 years.  I assume that you are aware that there are over 80 gospels written, but only 4 made it into the bible.  It's funny how those 4 paint such a similar (not totally consistent but similar) picture while the other 70 plus (now known) paint such a varied and different picture of things.  I suppose that the Emperor Constantine who abridged the bible (a pagan devil) was God's agent sent to distill the holy works into a more manageable volume.  


On a personal note.  You are a person of FAITH, what the hell are you doing giving reasons.  Reason is the domain of the non-believer.  Reasons are what caused most atheists to become atheists.  Faith by definition does not require reason.  Moreover, NOT requiring any reasons is your BEST WEAPON.  You sound idiotic attempting to use reasons to persuade people that God is responsible for anything.  Stick to the old "God is perfect and the bible says it so it must be true" garbage.

[lisette]

Reading all your comments about the christian faith, I realise how little you actually know about God and His followers. That you cannot understand that 'God is omniscient; he knows ALL, including the future' is a very simple thing to explain for a Christian. well.... it should be. (for not all who call themselves Christians, are real followers of Christ)
Does a vessel understand his maker? Does a computer understand human minds. No, a computer cannot understand a human being, because it was made by a human being. You do not understand God, because you are just one of his creations. The problem here is that people always want to understand everything, and that makes this whole discussion senseless. For God is not someone you can understand or analise. The Christian faith does not make any sense, Jesus Christ does not make any sense (to those who do not know him). It doesn't have to make sense to men, that's why it is called 'faith'. We believe without seeing and understanding.
 Then why would someone be a Christian???
Because of the relationship with God. Because God calles us to come to Him. This is the deep secret. All this theology doesn't make any sense without a relationship with Jesus Christ. If you really meet Jesus, you just KNOW the truth and the truth will set you free. It is not something a Christian can explain, only the Holy Spirit can show a person in his heart what is the truth. And isn't that what everybody is looking for? The truth?
Why are you trying so hard to prove the Christians to be wrong? Why would you care? Why does it make you so mad?
Because you are looking for the truth! And they claim to have it! But you just don't understand it. With all the wisdom of the world you would still not be able to understand. Because only God can reveale the truth through his spirit. The Christian faith is not a faith of the 'mind' , but of the heart and the soul. And when a human soul meets its Maker, it just knows what is the truth. And having this relationship with my God proves me that He is right. That the Bible is the truth. I've seen miracles happen, I've seen God at work. And this proves enough for me, even if I don't understand. I know one day I will understand, when I will stand before Him.

The Bible speaks:

1 Corinthians 2: 6-10
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
   "No eye has seen,
      no ear has heard,
   no mind has conceived
   what God has prepared for those who love him"[a]â€" 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
      The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Acts 4
Peter and John Before the Sanhedrin
 1The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. 2They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. 3They seized Peter and John, and because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day. 4But many who heard the message believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand.

 5The next day the rulers, elders and teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. 6Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas, John, Alexander and the other men of the high priest's family. 7They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: "By what power or what name did you do this?"

 8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
11He is
   " 'the stone you builders rejected,
      which has become the capstone.[a]' 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

 13When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. 14But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say. 15So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrin and then conferred together. 16"What are we going to do with these men?" they asked. "Everybody living in Jerusalem knows they have done an outstanding miracle, and we cannot deny it. 17But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn these men to speak no longer to anyone in this name."

 18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."

 21After further threats they let them go. They could not decide how to punish them, because all the people were praising God for what had happened. 22For the man who was miraculously healed was over forty years old.
The Believers' Prayer
 23On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
   " 'Why do the nations rage
      and the peoples plot in vain?
 26The kings of the earth take their stand
      and the rulers gather together
      against the Lord
      and against his Anointed One.[c]'[d] 27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people[e] of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."

 31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.



Did you actually ever read the Bible in your search of finding the truth?
... for everybody believes something. And they who don't believe anything, are the ones that are restless and still searching for the truth.

[Miss Anthrope]

Lisette,

What makes me mad? Well, for one, salvation is based simply on a belief for which there is no proof. That alone is incredibly unfair, that an all powerful creator will cast a soul into the pits of hell SIMPLY because they didn't make the right choice, or "guess", since "choice" is a ridiculous term in this case. You can't "choose" the right apple if the apples are invisible.

If you went up to Muslim, who's beleifs are just as real to him as your's are to you, and told him about Jesus and the Bible, do you beleive he'll go to hell if he doesn't accept what you're saying? This almighty God of yours can't understand the intricasies of the human mind and its beleif systems enough to pass a rational judgement?

Why do i care? Simple, if the Bible is correct, the majority of people who live and have lived are going to BURN FOREVER IN HELL for not understanding and believing in something that you can't even explain. When it comes down to it, God created the entire, amazing universe simply to let a littel drama play out on one little tiny rock, a drama which ultimately leads to a tiny fraction of its inhabitants going to eternal paradise while the majority must suffer forever. All becasue this allegedly all-knowing god made a mistake (that is essentially why he flooded the Earth in the story of Noah, because he regretted his flawed creation). So the majority will suffer eternally becasue god was not capable of making a truly perfect Universe, or anyhting for that matter.

God knows everything, right, even the future? That means that he HAD to have known even before any of us were born who would burn forever and who would be saved. If God knew even a billion years ago that I would not end up being one of the saved, then that means I DON'T have a choice to become saved, because if I did it would contradict God's knowledge, and then he could not be called all-knowing. This doesn't make any sense to you? You think you're saved right? But anyone can backslide, and God knows if you will or not. So if God knows the future, and he knows that you'll be one of the damned, that means there is nothing you can do to prevent it. You would probably want to say at your judgement "Please god, what about the time I WAS a beleiver?", but to your God that is not enough. You changed your belief, and so you must suffer FOREVER.

Also, suppose you had a child who did not believe. Will you be sad in heaven to know he/she is suffering eternally?  I would imagine such knowledge would be unbearable for any parent, but apparently you can't be anything but happy in an eternal paradise, so in heaven loved ones don't even matter! What a heart-warming scenario! You'll just bask in God's glory forever, so what does it matter who's suffering, right. Will you talk to your God about how unfortunate it is that your child didn't believe the right thing without experiencing any negative emotion?

[curiosityandthecat]

Reading all your comments about the christian faith, I realise how little you actually know about God and His followers. That you cannot understand that 'God is omniscient; he knows ALL, including the future' is a very simple thing to explain for a Christian. well.... it should be. (for not all who call themselves Christians, are real followers of Christ)

Simple thing for simple people.

Did you say something about a Scotsman?  

Did you actually ever read the Bible in your search of finding the truth?
... for everybody believes something. And they who don't believe anything, are the ones that are restless and still searching for the truth.

Yep. I found it to contain some really good suggestions on how to live life. I also found it to contain hate, spite, malice, pornography, and instructions on how to be a real prick. Atheists don't believe in God; this doesn't mean we don't believe in anything. We believe in being good to one another without having the need of an imaginary friend telling us to do so.

In truth, we do want saved, though: from the clutches of the dirty uncle that is religion.

[Kiros]

(for not all who call themselves Christians, are real followers of Christ)

Simply saying that statement is blasphemy, isn't it? The one sin that your God will not forgive?

[lisette]

Romans 9
 6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]

 10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badâ€"in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsâ€"she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
   "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
      and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

[lisette]

lisette wrote:(for not all who call themselves Christians, are real followers of Christ)



Simply saying that statement is blasphemy, isn't it? The one sin that your God will not forgive?

this is not correct, the one sin that God cannot forgive is the sin against the Holy Spirit. In fact even the Bible sais that not everybody who sais that he is a Christian are real followers of Christ.

[curiosityandthecat]

Okay, two things:

First, and I've said this before:



And second:

[lisette]

The Bible is the truth, you just cannot handle the truth...
THat wheel does not really make any sense to me.....

They have eyes but cannot see.... ears but cannot hear. I hope one day God will open your eyes and you will see Him, open your ears and will hear Him calling you.

[curiosityandthecat]

The Bible is the truth, you just cannot handle the truth...

THat wheel does not really make any sense to me.....

I'm shocked.

They have eyes but cannot see.... ears but cannot hear. I hope one day God will open your eyes and you will see Him, open your ears and will hear Him calling you.

And I'm sure I'll feel just like this when it happens:

[Kiros]

The Bible is the truth, you just cannot handle the truth...
THat wheel does not really make any sense to me.....

They have eyes but cannot see.... ears but cannot hear. I hope one day God will open your eyes and you will see Him, open your ears and will hear Him calling you.

Blasphemy is still blasphemy, which is known to be "words spoken against God." If the Bible is the word of God, right? He's perfect in every way, shape, and form, so he's earned his right to say what he wants. You have not.

I'd suggest praying for His forgiveness, but God says that such blasphemy is unpardonable. Therefore, clearly you're going to go to hell no matter what.

Yes  

[Ihateyoumike]

The Bible is the truth, you just cannot handle the truth...

THat wheel does not really make any sense to me.....

Of course it doesn't. Because you don't think enough on your own to see how ridiculous your arguments are. If you could see it from an atheists perspective, you could understand.

They have eyes but cannot see.... ears but cannot hear. I hope one day God will open your eyes and you will see Him, open your ears and will hear Him calling you.

How cute. But we've heard it all before. Bring something new to the table for christ's sake. And hope all you want, pray for me all you want, it's not gonna do a bit of good. You know the old saying: Hope in one hand, crap in the other... see which one fills up first?

[Squid]

The Bible is the truth, you just cannot handle the truth...
THat wheel does not really make any sense to me.....

They have eyes but cannot see.... ears but cannot hear. I hope one day God will open your eyes and you will see Him, open your ears and will hear Him calling you.

One more time, without metaphors...