The Illusion of God's Presence: The Biological Origins of Spiritual Longing

[Sandra Craft]

His theory – the illusion of the title – is that belief in God is a misfire of the brain systems that evolved to promote parent-child bonding in infancy. A baby instinctively believes, without needing any prior experience, that its crying will summon a powerful, loving parental figure.

I think Wathey is going off the road a bit here, and reading too much into a baby's cry.  I don't think babies instinctively "believe" anything or are even trying to summon anyone -- they cry because that's the sole response to trouble they're capable of making. 

I'm inclined to think that a belief in gods is based on things that go on at a later age, when more of the brain has developed.

[Magdalena]

I wanted to add that this is a very interesting conversation you all are having, and even if I don't have anything to add currently, I am sitting very attentively in the corner drinking tea and listening.

It is interesting, isn't it? I couldn't add anything, even if I wanted to, I'm sitting semi-attentive in my corner, drinking a Modelo Especial beer, and attempting to stay focus .

I have never, ever, ever, felt the presence of a god, not even while I was enduring the most horrible suffering, or on the happiest day of my life...well, so far. Maybe being able to feel the presence of a god is something one earns by doing I don't know what. I know I'm never gonna  earn it because I'm at  the spiritual level of an Australopithecus africanus. I'm one of those who whenever they hear thunder, look up at the sky and wonder if a god is angry. Maybe I'm not worthy of a god's divine presence because I'm a sinner, I'm a joker, I'm not a smoker, but sometimes I'm a midnight toker, and only Jesus liked my type. 

[Sandra Craft]

Maybe I'm not worthy of a god's divine presence because I'm a sinner, I'm a joker, I'm not a smoker, but sometimes I'm a midnight toker, and only Jesus liked my type. 

Heh.  There may be something in the idea that some of us just aren't wired for belief.  I read about an experiment where a number of people's brains were wired up and then they were asked to pray or meditate.  I should mention these were people of varying belief systems.  When they were praying/meditating the part of their brain that lit up changed from dealing with reality to imagination -- all except for the meditating atheist, whose brain stayed lit in the reality center the whole time.  It's hardly conclusive, but it is interesting.

[Magdalena]

Maybe I'm not worthy of a god's divine presence because I'm a sinner, I'm a joker, I'm not a smoker, but sometimes I'm a midnight toker, and only Jesus liked my type. 

Heh.  There may be something in the idea that some of us just aren't wired for belief.  I read about an experiment where a number of people's brains were wired up and then they were asked to pray or meditate.  I should mention these were people of varying belief systems.  When they were praying/meditating the part of their brain that lit up changed from dealing with reality to imagination -- all except for the meditating atheist, whose brain stayed lit in the reality center the whole time.  It's hardly conclusive, but it is interesting.

I would like to able to explain how it feels to not feel the presence of a god, but it's not that easy. I would say that it feels as if I have a god repellent sprayed all over my body. I think it's pretty strong because it's capable of bending the divine light, away from me. I don't think that's bad, that's just how I was designed.

[Sandra Craft]

I would like to able to explain how it feels to not feel the presence of a god, but it's not that easy. I would say that it feels as if I have a god repellent sprayed all over my body. I think it's pretty strong because it's capable of bending the divine light, away from me. I don't think that's bad, that's just how I was designed.

I lean to Frank Lloyd Wright's quote: I believe in god, only I spell it n-a-t-u-r-e.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I don't think anything misfires for those who sense God's presence or for those who don't.  I think some are wired to experience and some are not.  I'm not wired to want to give birth to a baby and have no sense of what that experience is like.  Same for the presence of God, perhaps.  Whether there is an objective referent for the experience somewhere out there is not possible, IMHO, to establish.  It is what it is and we do what we do. As long as we get along it shouldn't be a problem.  But humans rarely get along for long.  Better to keep each other at a distance, or at least have an escape route planned.

[Magdalena]

^^
"Better to keep each other at a distance, or at least have an escape route planned."

That's why it's called, The illusion of God's Presence, thread. It's just an illusion, even the Pope knows this, this is why some popemobiles are open air, while others have bulletproof glass. The illusion is one thing, reality is another.

[Icarus]

God's presence  is a reality, not an illusion, for many people.  Is it conceivable that they might have some faculty that we do not? I do not believe that to be the case but I can not dismiss it at a hundred percent level. To do so would be close minded, which is a trait
that we accuse the ultra religious of harboring.

I am a staunch atheist but I am willing to learn about cosmic truths that I do not understand at this time.  Meanwhile, I have little patience with the vast army of people who honestly believe that prayer is affective, or that their god will protect them while they handle venomous snakes, or that god puts images of Jesus or Mary on grilled cheese sandwiches.

[Crow]

I probably am not clearly articulating my position.  God in my case is not dopamine, noradrenaline and serotonin, any more than my granddaughter or the Milky Way are.  Those chemicals are in my brain, and are responsible for my experience of my granddaughter, the Milky Way, and what I call God.  Those three things are all things that I perceive "out there".  In the case of my granddaughter and the Milky Way, there are identifiable physical objects.  The sight of them (or in the case of people, the sound, feel, smell, etc.) causes the chemicals in my brain to cause an experience.  With God, the perception is based on some event, some circumstance, some thought, perhaps music or something else, excites the experience.  More later, going to eat.

What feeling/experience is it that leads you to perceive it as a god, a feeling of a presence of some sort or of being observed? A combination of a specific emotions?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

What feeling/experience is it that leads you to perceive it as a god, a feeling of a presence of some sort or of being observed? A combination of a specific emotions?

It is different at different times, but for the most part it consists of a sense of a presence of another person.  The presence is loving, not judgmental.  Sometimes, a set of circumstances or events seem to reveal the presence, as if to say "here I am".  It ties my existence together, makes it coherent, gives it meaning.  It makes me think there is a goal, a plan.  Sometimes I get a sense of gratitude about something good that happens.  It's varied, like most relationships, except that it's on a higher or deeper level.  I identify the presence with Jesus.

I never had any negative connotations associated with Jesus, so perhaps that's why he seems so accessible to me.  I'm glad I didn't grow up Catholic or in some cult - that would have probably ruined it for me.  But my childhood Sunday School days were more benign - coloring pictures of Jesus or acting in a play about the Good Samaritan. Overall quite positive. None of the "God's gonna get you" stuff.  Maybe that's why I relate to him.  I can't see him rejecting anyone. 

So Jesus is an actual historic figure that represents what God is like to me.  He existed, whether God does or not.  He puts a face and hands on God, even though I've never actually seen Jesus.  It makes it easier to comprehend an abstract concept.

[Biggus Dickus]

I wanted to add that this is a very interesting conversation you all are having, and even if I don't have anything to add currently, I am sitting very attentively in the corner drinking tea and listening.

What kind of tea?

Masala Chai...30 minutes on the stove, whole house smelled divine at the time.


I wonder how those who claim, and truly believe they have been abducted by aliens would compare...is the perception the same as the one Bruce claims to have?

I would equate my perception of contact or closeness I feel at times when I visit my father's grave as I described earlier as probably no different than that of those who feel or claim to have felt a presence of god or Jesus, with the one exception I guess, I'm aware the perceived feeling is only that, perceived and not grounded in reality.